< Talk:Taj Mahal
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- 31Is the gallery neccessary
Taj Mahal original name was Tejo Mahalaya built in 1155 AD. If one observes history, Mumtaz-ul-Zamani (3rd wife of Aurangzeb’s father Shahjahan) died in 1631 AD, and it is said that it took 22 years to build the Taj. Then the present Taj must have been completed in 1653 AD.
Taj Mahal
plz add this pic: File:Edwin Lord Weeks - The Taj Mahal - Walters 37316.jpg— Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.92.245 (talk) 15:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
✗Not doneSenator2029 (talk) 09:11, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
✗Not doneSenator2029 (talk) 09:11, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Relation to Vedic times
Relation to just Vedic times DOES NOT MAKE Taj Mahal a Shiva Temple.Till now,no proof has been found for this theory.Please justify.Aayush.r (talk) 12:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Mughal Pathan
The Pathan are a community from Afghanistan, the Pathan claim to be descent from Saul, the first Jewish king. However, this claim is rejected by the Afghan proper who refer themselves as Ban-i-Afghan or Ban-i-Isrial to differentiate themselves form the Indian Pathan. According to the Pathan naration their ancestors migrated from Afghanistan and worked as defenders of forts in the hills during the regime of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and claimed the stock of Mughal Pathan and Kabuli Pathan. Also, they originally served as mercenaries in the armies of the Musalman rulers in the Deccan region. At present they are distributed in seventy-four districts of India but a considerable number of them are reported in Uttar Pradesh. The Pathan are non-vegetarian who eat only halal meat.
In the Pathan are divided into sixteen subgroups. Territorial differentiation within the community among the subgroups exists and these identities are known as qabilas. According to the 1931 census, the population of the Pathan was 1,094,386. Consanguineous marriages between parallel and cross cousins are prevalent. Marriage with one's deceased wife's younger sister or elder brother's widow is permitted. Monogamy is the general practice but polygamy does occur. The rule of residence is patriarchal. Remarriage are permitted in the community. They do not observe any marriage symbols. Vertically extended families do exist but there is an increase in the number of nuclear families. A widow is entitled to the one-eighth share of her husband's property. Sons equally share two-thirds and daughters one-third of the remaining property. They eldest son succeeds to his father's authority. Post-delivery pollution is not observed.
The main occupation of the Pathan is agriculture while business is their subsidiary occupation. Some of them are in service too. There is no community council as such, but to uphold community norms and to resolve social issues form time to time an ad hoc body of elders is formed. They belong to the Sunni sect of Islam. The community favors formal education for boys, but the girls only partially. They make full use of modern amenities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.3.149.238 (talk) 10:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
GA status
After taking a look at the article, as well as its failed FA candidacy, I think that the same issues raised in the FA review might bar the article from GA status. The article was promoted to GA status about a year and a half ago, but the GA criteria have changed drfamatically since then (in fact I think there were no criteria at all in Jan 2006). I wanted to bring this up here to give editors and contributors a chance to work on the article and hopefully improve it based on the GA criteria. Otherwise, I'll nominate the article for GA review soon. Drewcifer3000 05:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Good Article review
Given the above, I have nominated this article for Good Article review. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion there. Drewcifer 02:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- The result of the review was to Keep the article listed as GA. You can find an archive of the discussion here. Drewcifer 08:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Virtual tours online
We provide an excellent online tour, Explore the Taj Mahal http://www.taj-mahal.net - which is free to all, and includes materials which cannot be included in-line in Wikipedia, namely the panoramic views, interactive map and the narrated slide shows. We also provide free, downloadable pictures and graphics for free and unrestricted usage by schools.
We were listed for years under the external links section, due to the non-inline materials we provided.
Now I see that many have gotten around the ban on 'commercial links' by listing parts of their websites in the references section.
Since policy (and enforcement of that policy) seems to have changed, could anyone tell me what the actual policy is now?
I would certainly like our virtual tour to be available to Wikipedia visitors, but it pains me to see our wonderful work prohibited while others circumvent the rules.
ThanksWilliam Donelson
- I'd like to second this request: despite the fact that their website contains some advertisements, this really is a very informative piece of work. Especially as there are hardly any pictures of the interior of the Taj available on the web, because of the inhibition on cameras iside the Taj. I have a link to suggest for the external links section as well: as it is also prohibited to bring a video camera anywhere near the Taj, there are no close-up video images of the Taj. I've been very lucky to shoot highres footage myself in july 2006, which can be viewed at: http://www.imagesandmusic.nl/dhtml/Taj-Mahal.htm . In this video also still images are used, that were captured from the very QuikTime movies that can be found at www.taj-mahal.net (for want of other sources). With kind regards, André Kamer —Preceding unsigned comment added by ImagesAndMusic (talk • contribs) 12:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Addition of 360° panoramic picture
I have donated and added a 360° panoramic picture to the Gardens section
William Donelson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Donelson (talk • contribs) 23:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
1001 Images of Taj Mahal : A Great Wonder of the World. Details: http://indianbooksonart.com/index.php?p=sr&Uc=8147680844122407113—Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.18.11 (talk) 16:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC) Add me on facebook @ Megan Carlisle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.78.15.254 (talk) 17:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Copy edit
I did some copyedits to make the text look stubby and flow a little better. Could someone take a lead on expanding history and introducing a section on Influence? Do anyone has more citations that can be inline? Thanks! - RC 07:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Something I had found on the Internet that seems to contradict a lot of notions regarding the Taj Mahal. Long reading. http://www.stephen-knapp.com/true_story_of_the_taj_mahal.htm76.31.75.146 20:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Taj Mahal or Tejo Mahalaya
No one has ever challenged it except Prof. P. N. Oak, who believes the whole world has been duped. In his book Taj Mahal: The True Story, Oak says theTaj Mahal is not Queen Mumtaz's tomb but an ancient Hindu temple palace of Lord Shiva (then known as Tejo Mahalaya) . In the course of his research O ak discovered that the Shiva temple palace was usurped by Shah Jahan from then Maharaja of Jaipur, Jai Singh. In his own court chronicle,Badshahnama, Shah Jahan admits that an exceptionally beautiful grand mansion in Agra was taken from Jai SIngh for Mumtaz's burial . The ex-Maharaja of Jaipur still retains in his secret collection two orders from Shah Jahan forsurrendering the Taj building. Using captured temples and mansions, as a burial place for dead courtiers and royalty was a common practice among Muslim rulers.
For example, Humayun,Akbar, Etmud-ud-Daula and Safdarjung are all buriedin such mansions. Oak's inquiries began with the name of Taj Mahal. He says the term 'Mahal' has never been used for a building in any Muslim countries from Afghanisthan to Algeria. 'The unusual explanation that the term TajMahal derives from Mumtaz Mahal was illogical in atleast two respects.
Firstly, her name was never Mumtaz Mahal but Mumtaz-ul-Zamani,' he writes. Secondly, one cannot omit the first three letters 'Mum' from a woman's name to derive the remainder as the name for the building.'Taj Mahal, he claims, is a corrupt version of Tejo Mahalaya, or Lord Shiva's Palace. Oak also says the love story of Mumtaz and Shah Jahan is a fairy tale created by court sycophants, blundering historians and sloppy archaeologists. Not a single royal chronicle of Shah Jahan's time corroborates the love story.
Furthermore, Oak cites several documents suggesting the Taj Mahal predatesShah Jahan's era, and was a temple dedicated to Shiva, worshipped by Rajputs of Agra city. For example, Prof. Marvin Miller of New York took a few samples from the riverside doorway of the Taj. Carbon dating tests revealed that the door was 300 years older than Shah Jahan. European traveler Johan Albert Mandelslo,who visited Agra in 1638 (only seven years after Mumtaz's death), describes the life of the cit y in his memoirs. But he makes no reference to the Taj Mahal being built. The writings of Peter Mundy, an English visitor to Agra within a year of Mumtaz's death, also suggest the Taj was a noteworthy building well before Shah Jahan's time.
Prof. Oak points out a number of design and architectural inconsistencies that support the belief of the Taj Mahal being a typical Hindu templerather than a mausoleum. Many rooms in the Taj Mahal have remained sealed since Shah Jahan's time and are still inaccessible to the public. Oak asserts they contain a headless statue of Lord Shiva and other objects commonly used for worship rituals in Hindu temples . Fearing political backlash, Indira Gandhi's government tried to have Prof. Oak's bookwithdrawn from the bookstores, and threatened the Indian publisher of the first edition dire consequences . There is only one way to discredit orvalidate Oak's research.
Why does not the current government open the sealed rooms of the Taj Mahal under U.N. supervision, and let international experts investigate?
--121.246.158.79 (talk) 08:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)Truth and nothing but the truth
- Yes we know all about the late 'Professor' (he died just two days ago) and his theories. See the Talk archive. Paul B (talk) 12:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The Taj Mahal was built on a parcel of land to the south of the walled city of Agra. Shah Jahan presentedMaharajah Jai Singh with a large palace in the centre of Agra in exchange for the land.-Chaghtai Le Tadj Mahal p54; Lahawri 'Badshah Namah Vol.1 p403It's could have been a temple for a palace exchange.
- Yeah, it could also have been a land-for-palace exchange too, In fact there could have been just about anything there, except the sources mention say 'And previously this was the manzil [halting-place, caravanserai, house] of Rajah Man Singh - not a temple. --Joopercoopers (talk) 01:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- well, until disproved that that the Taj Mahal was built by Maharajah Jai Singh, the theory still stands as a controversy. Courts & lawyers can't prove or disprove archeology.--Ne0Freedom 21:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
- No, but no 'archaeology' is involved, and all reliable sources and architectural historians agree who built it, and that's all that matters. Paul B (talk) 12:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- well, until disproved that that the Taj Mahal was built by Maharajah Jai Singh, the theory still stands as a controversy. Courts & lawyers can't prove or disprove archeology.--Ne0Freedom 21:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Please have a look at these website: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/true_story_of_the_taj_mahal.htmhttp://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htmbefore claiming that Taj-Mahal was of moghul arcitecture.It was a Hindu temple.B1sac (talk) 15:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Professor Marvin H. Mills has analysed the massive data cited by Oak and writes 'new information and analysis have come forth to constitute a compelling argument that the Taj Mahal was actually a former Hindu palace occupied and converted to a tomb by the Moguls' (AN ARCHITECT LOOKS AT THE TAJ MAHAL LEGEND, and SEPARATING THE TAJ MAHAL FROM LEGEND, www.marvinmills.com). David Kung (talk) 05:12, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we know. The author is a self-published crank, who also 'proved' that Spanish mosques were really built by the Phoenicians aided by survivors of the sinking of Atlantis. Paul B (talk) 09:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Shouldn't there be a mention of this controversy regarding Taj Mahal in this or maybe a relation 'origin' article ? why is it just in the discussion ? the usual users dont read the discussion page. 123.2.12.175 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC).
- Yes, we know. The author is a self-published crank, who also 'proved' that Spanish mosques were really built by the Phoenicians aided by survivors of the sinking of Atlantis. Paul B (talk) 09:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal
How about merging Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal into Taj Mahal as the Architecture part is inclued in both articles and thus overlapping. Why have the 2 articles about the same stuff? Besides Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal is a more ref version, its merger will make the article closer to FA. Another thing that can be done is a reverse merger , the section in Taj Mahal about architecture can be removed and placed in Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal. Suggestions????? --Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
- 'Why have the 2 articles about the same stuff?' - because, as one of the world's most significant buildings, the subject warrants sufficiently in-depth coverage. 1 article for the origins and architecture, another for the post construction history and it's place in world culture, and another summary article (this one) to tie the two together. --Joopercoopers (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Nice to see you back, Joopercoopers. If Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal is to be kept the Taj Mahal article must be written in summary sytle. The current 'Architecture' section in Taj Mahal be removed then and be replaced by a summarized version. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 08:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. --Joopercoopers (talk) 09:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Nice to see you back, Joopercoopers. If Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal is to be kept the Taj Mahal article must be written in summary sytle. The current 'Architecture' section in Taj Mahal be removed then and be replaced by a summarized version. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 08:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Interesting Fact!
Many or rather most does not know that during the rule of the British in India, some western writers and christian missionaries tried to claim that the design of the Taj was primarly designed by italian architects!!!! Ajjay (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Mumtaz Mahal's son planned to build a copy of the Taj Mahal across the river. The only difference is that it would be black rather than white but the project was never completed.
- There were certainly numerous craftsmen involved, and there were Italian designers/craftsmen in Agra, so some were probably involved - along with many, many people of various backgrounds. The individual who is usually referred to in this context is a goldsmith called Geronimo Veroneo. Paul B (talk) 17:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Before any one claims it to be their architecture. Please click the link below:
- Converted Hindu Temple Palace to TAJ MAHAL (The Photographic Evidences)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.101.227.130 (talk) 16:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Excuse me
This article doesn't talk about why it was built in the first place! This is a serious problem. Contralya (talk) 03:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
- I had added a 'quote' by Shah Jahan who bulit Taj Mahal, it has been deleted. I think it was important, and also highlighted why he built it.Ajjay (talk) 04:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Please also ad that it is one of the seven wonders of the world, and the topranked ! 59.180.54.227 (talk) 13:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- It's already in the tourism section. regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 15:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a quote
I just read something beautiful: The Taj is not merely a sensuous reminiscence of an imperial amour or a fairy enchantment hewn from the moon’s lucent quarries, but the eternal dream of a love that survives death. The great mosques embody often a religious aspiration lifted to a noble austerity which supports and is not lessened by the subordinated ornament and grace. The tombs reach beyond death to the beauty and joy of Paradise. (The Complete Works of Sri Aurobindo, Volume 20, Page 284). --Bhadani (talk) 15:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think that's utterly beautiful. Perhaps we should include it as testament to the almost universal praise the building has elicited throughout the ages. --Joopercoopers (talk) 16:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- for a project, I had to find out what peoples opinions on certain buildings are. I could find anything in the article so i looked here. I think i'll use that piece of text, but could we put something in the article about praise/criticism? (although i doubt theres any criticism) --Jezzamon (talk) 08:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- ...also, while I'm adding things that would make my life easier, it would be interesting (and useful to me) to add what the architects inspiration was. --Jezzamon (talk) 09:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- See origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal. --Joopercoopers (talk) 09:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Infobox
I've removed it again - see the archive, it doesn't add any information that of any real use. --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Please
Take out 'Touch my hole' from in the extereor decoration part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.120.97 (talk) 11:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well spotted - thanks, I've removed it. You're are free of course to edit yourself, we need people with sharp eyes - I notice the article is no longer protected, so you don't need an account, although getting one is generally considered more fun. --Joopercoopers (talk) 11:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Pronunciation
I changed the pronunciation to /tɑːdʒməˈhɑːl/. In Hindi/Urdu the final consonant of the first word is most certainly an affricative and, therefore, closer to /dʒ/ than to /ʒ/. It's true that English speakers often turn /dʒ/ in foreign words into /ʒ/ because of the (generally unconscious) awareness that /ʒ/ in English words generally indicates a foreign, mostly French, origin. Think of leisure, reason, measure, rouge, beige etc. However, this is not the sound in Taj in Hindi/Urdu, nor is it the pronunciation of careful, educated speakers of English familiar with South Asia. However, since /tɑʒ/ is also very common, I've kept it as well. Interlingua 01:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
- This also consistent with the Oxford English Dictionary. It lists both but gives /tɑdʒ/ first. Interlingua 01:05, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
- This is an English-language part of Wikipedia, so the English pronunciation is what matters. No problem including the Hindi pronunciation, in a secondary role. Random House gives the /ʒ/ version precedence over /dʒ/. In ordinary English, the /dʒ/ is almost NEVER used. The English pronunciation is not directly controlled by the pronunciation of Hindi, and the the claim 'careful, educated speakers' is dismissive. The pronunciation almost universally used in English should be restored; but there's no reason to deleted the pedantic pronunciation that's rarely used. Both can co-exist in the article. The existence of both in major English dictionaries is justification. The pronunciation in Hindi is irrelevant to this English-language article, except perhaps as a side note. The name has been spoken on the radio and television a great deal recently (December 2008 events), and none of the commentators, neither American, British, nor Indian, use the /dʒ/ version, even whilst speaking English with a strong Hindi accent.
Pre-British
It would nice to see what it look before the british altered the Garden, and it more like a persian garden symbolizing the Garden of Eden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.144.241 (talk) 03:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
- That's a very interesting question - Koch, Ebba [Aug 2006]. The Complete Taj Mahal: And the Riverfront Gardens of Agra (Hardback), First (in English), Thames & Hudson Ltd, 288 pages. ISBN0500342091. is a great book with many interesting Mughal images and early photography before Curzon made the changes - it looked entirely overgrown by then. The original planting of the garden is one of the Taj Mahal's remaining mysteries. The contemporary accounts mostly deal just with the architecture and only mention 'various kinds of fruit-bearing trees and rare aromatic herbs' in relation to the garden. Cypress trees are almost certainly to have been planted being popular similes in Persian poetry for the slender elegant stature of the beloved. By the end of the 18th century, Thomas Twining noted orange trees and a large plan of the complex suggests beds of various other fruits such as pineapples, pomegranates, bananas, limes and apples. The layout of the garden, and its architectural features such as its fountains, brick and marble walkways, and geometric brick-lined flowerbeds are similar to Shalimar's, and suggest that the garden may have been designed by the same engineer, Ali Mardan. Early accounts of the garden describe its profusion of vegetation, including roses, daffodils, and fruit trees in abundance. --Joopercoopers (talk) 03:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
oh look
'There were certainly numerous craftsmen involved, and there were Italian designers/craftsmen in Agra, so some were probably involved - along with many, many people of various backgrounds. The individual who is usually referred to in this context is a goldsmith called Geronimo Veroneo. Paul B (talk) 17:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC) '
typical of the inherent racism that pervades Taj scholarship. i.e. implying that indians could never have built such a thing without the involvement of europeans. the involvement of this geronimo and any other european is nothing but a fairytale. a bunch of foreign missionary monks and petty traders and small-time nobodies looking to make a living in travel novels isnt exactly a ground for brilliant creativity. these people were there to rob and destroy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Balvinder1 (talk • contribs) 23:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
you just cant accept that indians built such a thing, hence the fiction of builders from turkey, and the insistance that help came from all over outside india etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Balvinder1 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
- There's nothing remotely racist about acknowleging that the Shah used whatever craftsmen were available. He probably wouldn't have cared what nationality they were as long as they were good, and neither should we. The only racism is in your portrayal of non-Indians in totally negative terms and your attempt to suppress established facts. Paul B (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
- There's been an awful lot of guff written about this and it's true to say that, particularly the English (and I am one of those) chose, in less enlightened times, to believe tales of Turks and Italian Goldsmiths were responsible for the design, for probably racist reasons. Modern scholarship however acknowledges the contribution of Hindu craftsmen in the work - there's plenty of masons marks as evidence for this. There's also evidence that italian craftsmenship from the Opificio delle pietre dure was present in Jahan's courts - and it's thought likely some of their techniques were borrowed by the indigenous craftsmen in the Parchin kari work. The Taj should really be seen as a synthesis of several different cultural and technical pulls: The predominant Islamic Mughal courtly culture and symbolism synthesised where possible with Hindu craft and symbolism and just possibly also with some European techniques and the influence of some of the floral botanical studies they brought with them. The Taj is not just X - it's always X+Y+Z. Regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Spelling/grammar errors
This article is in definite need of cleaning up. It has way too many spelling and grammar errors in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sera8091 (talk • contribs) 05:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
- That's because Balvinder1 just messed it up. Reverted. Paul B (talk) 09:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
New External link
I thought the synth of this would be nice addition.
{{editsemiprotected}}
- Photosynth view of Taj Mahal (requires Photosynth)
- Done! Thank you for the addition! --DASkunk - (talk) 05:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Mumbai attacks
Should we have info about mumbai attacks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.95.155.132 (talk) 09:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think so - they were at the Taj hotel , which is made clear in the banner at the top of the page. The Mumbai attacks have their own page. regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
- There has been confusion. My neighbor told me parts of the Taj Mahal were blown up last year. I retorted with surprise that I had heard no such thing. Until I searched here. It explains why she thought the Taj Mahal was a hotel as well. 70.59.140.179 (talk) 06:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Closing permanently
Looks like they're planning on closing it to the public eventually. Someone want to put this in?
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-interests-24861225—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.42.233 (talk) 15:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
- One to watch I think - people consider all kinds of things - if it does shut, then of course we should include it then.
blah
addition, many renowned Muslim craftsmen from Baghdad, Shiraz and Bukhara worked on many specialized tasks.
The Taj stands on a raised, square platform (186 x 186 feet) with its four corners truncated, forming an unequal octagon. The architectural design uses the interlocking arabesque concept, in which each element stands on its own and perfectly integrates with the main structure. It uses the principles of self-replicating geometry and a symmetry of architectural elements.
Its central dome is fifty-eight feet in diameter and rises to a height of 213 feet. It is flanked by four subsidiary domed chambers. The four graceful, slender minarets are 162.5 feet each. The entire mausoleum (inside as well as outside) is decorated with inlaid design of flowers and calligraphy using precious gems such as agate and jasper. The main archways, chiseled with passages from the Holy Qur’an and the bold scroll work of flowery pattern, give a captivating charm to its beauty. The central domed chamber and four adjoining chambers include many walls and panels of Islamic decoration.
The mausoleum is a part of a vast complex comprising of a main gateway, an elaborate garden, a mosque (to the left), a guest house (to the right), and several other palatial buildings. The Taj is at the farthest end of this complex, with the river Jamuna behind it. The large garden contains four reflecting pools dividing it at the center. Each of these four sections is further subdivided into four sections and then each into yet another four sections. Like the Taj, the garden elements serve like Arabesque, standing on their own and also constituting the whole.Taj Mahal is a great thing to sudy also if you find resheaches you will be very instrited.
IslamiCity —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.66.107 (talk) 00:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Slumdog Millionaire quotes Wikipedia
In Slumdog Millionaire, the tour guides at the Taj Mahal are saying lines from this article. See:http://mpgonz.blogspot.com/2009/02/slumdog-millionaire-quotes-wikipedia.html—Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.127.94.7 (talk) 04:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
the messed up page!! by teresa wong
Architecture:The tomb
Can somebody explain what the following sentence from the above section is suppposed to mean?
On the long sides, a massive pishtaq, or vaulted archway, frames the iwan with a similar arch-shaped balcony.
Has a rogue break crept into the sentence.? Did it originally read:
a massive pishtaq, or vaulted archway, frames the iwan, with a similar arch-shaped balcony on either side of the main arch, additional pishtaqs are stacked above and below.
Richerman (talk) 00:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've changed it to something similar to that now - it's the only way it makes sense Richerman (talk) 00:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Translation
Why isn't the translation for 'Taj Mahal' included in the article? It means 'Crown Palace'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.90.115.106 (talk) 21:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'd like to know the translation, too, along with a cite. --Pawyilee (talk) 15:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- The name is translated variously as 'crown palace,' 'palace of the crown,' 'crown of the palace,' 'crown of palaces,' or 'crown of buildings,' depending on which web site you consult. There appears to be unanimity that the language is Urdu and that 'taj' means 'crown.' In the interest of having some succinct translation in the article, I've chosen one of the more authoritative sources (Collins English Dictionary) and added a brief sentence with source citation. Someone else who is proficient in Urdu semantics and grammar may wish to amend this layman's 'best guess.' Piperh (talk) 11:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Opening Times
The opening times section was unclear to me. It seemed that the grounds were only open on weekdays and partially on Friday (except for prayer times - ambiguous sentence). But from research on the internet, other information I've found suggests that it is open on weekends also and is closed all day Friday. Can anyone confirm this either way? Happy for me to change the text? Daamsie (talk) 12:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Improving the article with recent info about opening times -- particularly with your citation -- is a GOOD THING. --nemonoman (talk) 17:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
This sketchup model could possibly be included if suitable
The page has no ads... but dunno if relevant.http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=32029229b835ff3ebd92a163dc7fd278--Sudarshan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.44.190 (talk) 03:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Infobox
Perhaps this has been discussed earlier, but can someone please tell why the use of Infobox is discouraged? I read some arguments that it does not add any new information? But isn't the whole point of inbox to combine important information and display it upfront so that the reader doesn't have to dig through (sometimes extensively long) articles? Maintenance-wise I don't think it adds anything more than a few lines of documented code. Doesn't the infobox on this page Statue of Liberty do a good job of giving all the information in one box?
Abhijit Sathe (talk) 02:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
If I remember right, the gist is this:Abhijit Sathe (talk) 02:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- The infobox template is butt ugly
- Reduces the size of the main picture
- Emphasizes less important info that is properly placed in context within the article
- Emphasizes the building's Indian heritage while diminishing the Persian, Turkish, and other non-Indian influences. (This was a hot button).
- Gives undue weight to the UNESCO world heritage site info
recent reverts
- Pronunciation has been pretty well looked at and reviewed before this. Please explain reasons why this should be changed.
- Changes to the first paragraph are not minor. Removing cited material without explanations should be explained.
- The worker mutilation legend is discussed below in the 'Myths' section. The newspaper reference clearly states 'Legend has it'.
--Nemonoman (talk) 13:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Is the gallery neccessary
I felt this article have a gallery section. Most pictures are repetitions of things already covered by images like the mosque and the gate. The images can be seen at Commons gallery, why do we need them here? Certain sections already have internal galleries too. Too many images. I felt only File:Taj Mahal-11.jpg was different and worthy keeping. Thoughts? --RedtigerxyzTalk 14:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, there are far too many images. Richerman (talk) 14:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Problem is (1) it's hard to take a bad picture of the Taj and (2) everybody has one. I'd love to set up a selection criteria, specifically that the picture must add information about the Taj, not just be pretty.--Nemonoman (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
There is a selection criteria - its called the wp:Image use policy. If you look in there it says
Wikipedia is not an image repository. The gallery tag is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph or moved to Wikimedia Commons. Links to the Commons categories can be added to the Wikipedia article using the {{Commonscat}} template. One rule of thumb to consider: if, due to its content, a gallery would only lend itself to a title along the lines of 'Gallery' or 'Images of [insert article title]', as opposed to a more descriptive title, the gallery should either be revamped or moved to the Commons.
I think its time we removed a lot of the irrelevant images Richerman (talk) 16:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agree: but let's list them and review first. I doubt many will make the cut.--Nemonoman (talk) 17:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Rethink of images
- The Taj Mahal 1
- The tomb framed by the gateway entrance 2
- The mosque 3
- Great gate (Darwaza-i rauza) 4
- Typical postcard image 5
- View from the river Yamuna6
- The Taj Mahal at dusk 7
- The Taj Mahal at dusk turns yellow 8
- The base of the Taj is a large, multi-chambered structure 9
- Taj Mahal top of finial
Let's start with the gallery. I have listed File:Taj Mahal in India.jpg (9) too as I thought it has low or no encyclopedic value and is inappropriate for the current caption. Write the number(s) of images, which you think should be retained with possibly a reason: --RedtigerxyzTalk 17:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Robpinion: just put my finial shot back in here. It was in the gallery before. It's the only one I've ever seen that shows the name of Allah writing on the finial top. Shouldn't we use it on the main page because of this contribution? Many people may not know there is writing on the finial because it's not visible from the ground by most people. --24.92.209.209 (talk) 01:03, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
- That's a hell of picture, that finial. --Nemonoman (talk) 22:10, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
- Redtigerxyz:
- 6: selected image on Uttar Pradesh portal, good light, view of Taj and surrounding 2 buildings from across the Yamuna.
- 8: appropriate replacement for 9 --RedtigerxyzTalk 18:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think 8 or 9 is needed. 6 is a maybe.
- I would also kill:
- Note this image in the TOURISM section is the same as image 6 in the gallery above
- this 360 degree panorama makes no sense at small resolution
- Also maybe lose one or the other of the pix in the history section. I favor losing the National Geographic Kodachrome. --Nemonoman (talk) 18:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Support removal of National Geographic image. --RedtigerxyzTalk 18:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- What's really missing from the article is more images of the various parts of the 'complex' rather than a concentration on the mausoleum. Most people already know what the form looks like and I think they may be surprised by the extent and variety of the complex, it's hard to describe, but easy to illustrate. I think we should try and find and then include the following.
- Support removal of National Geographic image. --RedtigerxyzTalk 18:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also maybe lose one or the other of the pix in the history section. I favor losing the National Geographic Kodachrome. --Nemonoman (talk) 18:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- The best classic axial view of the mausoleum we can find - and then exlude all others, everyone has seen this image, we don't need it repeating throughout the article. Alternatively use 3 images together to demonstrate the way the marble changes with the light - at least this is encyclopedic then, the mughals saw the changing of light as religiously charged. see here.
- image of the octagon cenotaph upper and lower levels.
- Image of a minaret
- A few detail images of the parchin kari work.
- Image of the great gate - maybe an interior
- Image of the waterfront vista including the towers
- Image of the garden with one of the mid-wall pavilions
- Image of the Mosque interior and exterior + jawab
- Historic image of the overgrown gardens
- Couple of images of the Jilaukhana including one of the courtyards
- Images of the inner subsidiary tombs
- Image of one of the few remaining bits of the caravanserai to show the deformation of the architecture.
- Image of the midnight garden
--Joopercoopers (talk) 23:29, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Reproductions
In which section should reproductions like Bibi Ka Maqbara and Taj Mahal Bangladesh be mentioned? --RedtigerxyzTalk 18:13, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Only as 'See also' in my opinion. If I had my way, I'd AfD the Taj (bengladesh) article as non-notable. It's notable only because it's been noticed. The 'Mini-taj' is just another Mughal tomb in the same form, and its only relationship to the Taj Mahal is the Aurangabad Tourist Board calling it 'mini-taj' instead of 'Yet Another Mughal Tomb' --Nemonoman (talk) 18:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- They should be mentioned in the article write up somewhere like in Statue of Liberty or Eiffel Tower.--RedtigerxyzTalk 18:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, Be bold. Many people have identified that a sort of 'popular culture' grab-bag section would be useful, and maybe that would be the start. Along with use in advertising, movies, etc. --Nemonoman (talk) 18:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Serendipity. I just came here to mention that the article needs a Replica section. Most famous buildings have one. See Doge's Palace. If if grown unweildy, it can be made into a liked article. See: Replicas of the Jewish Temple which also features miniature models. Surely some notable models have been made of the Taj Mahal.Historicist (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm ok with this in principle, but a little concerned we draw a distinction between 'replicas' = being those constructions deliberately trying to create a facsimile of the original, and other constructions 'influenced' by the original. I think discussion of Mughal influence from the Taj should be dealt with separately from modern imitations. --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:19, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Meaning
I just think they should include the meaning in the article. I'm a Persian Farsi linguist and know that تاج محل translates to 'Local Crown.' Just thought people would like to know. (208.0.111.81 (talk) 03:51, 2 August 2009 (UTC))
- A 'best guess' translation (crown of buildings) has been added. As there are many translations in circulation and it is difficult for a layman to judge which might be more authoritative, someone with deeper understanding of the origins of the name may wish to amend this first attempt. Most sources that identify any language claim that the name is Urdu and that 'taj' means 'crown.' There is no consensus about what 'mahal' means (most likely building, buildings, palace, or palaces?) or about the grammatical relationship of the two words. Piperh (talk) 11:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Possible e-mail to indohistory
The e-mail address isindohistory at indohistory.com
A draft of the e-mail would look like
Dear Indohistory,
We have noticed that some of your articles are airlifted from Wikipedia (foremost the article on the Taj Mahal and the starting page on India.) If you do this, we ask that you directly cite the relevant articles from Wikipedia.
Thanks,
Indeed123 (or somebody else), Wikipedia user
We have noticed that some of your articles are airlifted from Wikipedia (foremost the article on the Taj Mahal and the starting page on India.) If you do this, we ask that you directly cite the relevant articles from Wikipedia.
Thanks,
Indeed123 (or somebody else), Wikipedia user
Any ideas? Indeed123 (talk) 15:54, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- ?Like why bother? Slumdog Millionaire lifted a lot of the article and none of the editors got a dime, much less a screen credit. Are we suddenly expecting all the scraping sites to get honest? --Nemonoman (talk) 23:38, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- See this Daily mail article. No citations there either. And indohistory.com is suddenly going to come clean? --Nemonoman (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- Probably not. Ah well, someone can e-mail them if they so desire, I guess. 98.216.217.18 (talk) 02:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Modular Planning of Taj Mahal
ONe month ago, the site featured a long discussion on the modular plan of the Taj complex, as explained in Ebba Koch's book and by the architect Andre Barraud.
I had posted an edit to this providing reference to a recently publishing paper in a reputed journal CURRENT SCIENCE. This was as follows:
'Balasubramaniam (Current Science, Vol. 97 (2009) 42-49; http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jul102009/42.pdf) presents new insights on the modular planning of the Taj Mahal complex, one of the most visited and well-known archaeological structures of India. This is also one of the wonders of the modern world. The Taj Mahal complex is planned based on ordering of grids, with the main architectures features of the complex placed on bilaterally mirror symmetry along the north-south axis. The dimensions of the various sections (the riverfront terrace, the gardens, the forecourt and the caravanserai) of the complex have been analyzed using new knowledge on the traditional unit of length measure (the angulam) of the subcontinent. Dimensional analysis has revealed that the modular planning of the Taj Mahal complex was executed using the traditional measurement units mentioned in Arthasastra, in particular the vitasti measuring 12 angulams of 1.763 cm. The riverfront terrace and garden sections of the complex were planned using a grid of 90 vitasti while the forecourt and caravanserai sections, using a grid of 60 vistasti. The logical numbers that result for the dimensions has been analyzed to reveal the ease of division of these numbers into symmetric elements to understand quadratic division of space of the garden area and the triadic division of space of the mausoleum, including decimal divisions. A novel approach to understand the metrology of historical architectural structures of the Indian subcontinent is revealed. More importantly, this study has confirmed that traditional design principles and civil engineering skills of the Indian subcontinent were utilized in the construction of Taj Mahal.'
Then I noticed that the entire site was changed and the entire discussion on modular planning was removed.
More importantly, it was no longer possible to edit the site as it became 'protected.'
This is a clear case of supressing of information and I requset the WIKIPEDIA authorities to look in this matter.
There are concerns about objectivity and the recent objects (16 Aug 09) is valid.
R BalasubramaniamProfessorIIT Kanpur20 Aug 09email: [email protected] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.64.72.113 (talk) 06:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm - are you sure you are looking at the right page? This information is included in Origins_and_architecture_of_the_Taj_Mahal#Dimensional_organisation. Kind regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 09:02, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Taj Mahal, The other Hidden story
There is an another story behind Taj Mahal which is HIDDEN. The Story what is told is untrue, there are so many controversys behind Taj Mahal
Some of the contentious things put before were
1)Shahjahan and Aurangzeb were Hindu murdererers then how come OM symbol, dattoori flower, trident, Lotus, cobra portraits which are Hinduism divine features present there2)Muslims all over the world construct mosque to the direction of mecca but the altered mosque is facing towards south doesn't the muslims of that time know directions3)why only 14 chapters of quran are present on taj mahal4)why is the tomb present in the 3rd floor5)why is the 3 floors of 7 storied tajmahal are sealed with metal doors from the year 19306)why are 220 rooms required in a building for a grave7)why the present congress government not ready to open the sealed rooms for international examination8)why the archeological excavation which took place in 1920 to 1930 is kept secret and not reveled
Google - Taj Mahal was it a vedic temple
Sathu108 (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Please see the 'Consensus on Contentious Issues' section near the top of the page. By consensus this hypothesis has been considered and rejected as lacking reliable sources. --Nemonoman (talk) 15:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
ANKUR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.193.30.36 (talk) 20:14, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Wrong Information in 'Myth' section
In the 'Myth' section it says that Supreme Court dismissed P. N. Oak's petition. However the link/ citation for this information is dead.
It's a fact that numerous temples were destroyed by the Muslim rulers and invaders. In recent times sculptures which were hundreds of years old, the Bamiyan Buddhas were systematically destroyed by a section of Muslim faith known as the Talibans.
If Taj Mahal was not built by a Hindu King and Supreme Court indeed dismissed the petition if there was one, provide valid sources. Else remove this bit as it would amount to wrong information in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.21.210 (talk) 17:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- I have replaced the above mentioned IndiaInfo citation with a news report from The Hindu's archives of 14th July 2000. Knight Samar (talk) 16:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
The controversy
I read the comment in the myth stating that one must refer this page as to how much of the shiva temple controversy has to be put up. I however created another paragraph and gave a small intro as the one relating to the issue in the myth was having many dead links. I feel that the people must have a right to know about what all controversies and debates are going on regarding the structure rather than the plain fat about its architecture, purpose and who all have visited it...I have however kept it as neutral as possible. Please consider the fact that the public have a right to know what is being debated about it before reverting, if it is going to be done. -Betawarrior60
- Thank you for the addition, but we decided that we would keep references to Oak's ideas to a minimum. Also your additional text was far from neutral. There is no real 'controversy' among historians. You claim that the Indian government has 'banned' discussion to maintain 'communal harmony', but provide no reliably sourced evidence. Your sources fail the guidelines of WP:RS. Paul B (talk) 11:45, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
by the way i think this is a wonderfully kept article , congrats to all the editors for the good job........... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vaishali135 (talk • contribs) 18:43, 26 September 2010 (UTC) The Taj Mahal is regarded as one of the most beautiful buildings in all the world. What you may not know is how the building of that structure came about. It was begun after the death of the wife of emperor Shah Jahan. He was devastated at her death and resolved to honor her by constructing a temple that would serve as her tomb. Her coffin was placed in the center of a large parcel of land, and construction of the temple began around it. No expense would be spared to make her final resting place magnificent.
But as the weeks turned into months, the Shah’s grief over his wife’s death turned into a passion for the building project. He no longer mourned her absence. The construction consumed him. One day, while walking from one side of the construction site to the other, his leg bumped against a wooden box. The prince brushed the dust off his leg and ordered the worker to throw the box out.
What Shah Jahan didn’t know is that he had ordered the disposal of the coffin of his late wife. And so the one the temple was intended to honor was forgotten, but the temple was erected anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.123.6.18 (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I'm new here
But why aren't they acknowledging the foreign workforce behind the Taj Mahal? I've studied this in great length (my thesis was on the Taj Mahal) and found a lot of this article to be nothing short of a lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.127.141 (talk) 12:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Pending changes
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
The following request appears on that page:
Comments on the suitability of theis page for 'Pending changes' would be appreciated.
Please update the Queue page as appropriate.
Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially
Regards, RichFarmbrough, 00:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
- Deep, deep joy. Deep breath. --Joopercoopers (talk) 00:28, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
File:Tjmahal.jpg—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.79.55.82 (talk) 09:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Being a true Indian facts have to been seen and Truths have to be Shown to the world!
Taj Mahal being one the wonders of the world today,has so much to tell wat the world would have never ever thought it to be.
Taj Mahal is Tejo Mahalaya a temple dedicated to lord shiva which was worshiped by Rajputs a royal clan.Prof. Marvin miller conducted Carbon dating tests on the riverside doorway of the Taj which reported it to be 300 years older.
The term 'Mahal' has never been used for a building in any Muslim countries from Afghanisthan to Algeria. 'The unusual explanation that the term Taj Mahal derives from Mumtaz Mahal was illogical in atleast two respects. Firstly, her name was never Mumtaz Mahal but Mumtaz-ul-Zamani,' he writes. Secondly, one cannot omit the first three letters 'Mum' from a woman's name to derive the remainder as the name for the building.'Taj Mahal, he claims, is a corrupt version of Tejo Mahalaya, or Lord Shiva's Palace. The love story of Mumtaz and Shah Jahan is a fairy tale created by court sycophants, blundering historians and sloppy archaeologists. Not a single royal chronicle of Shah Jahan's time corroborates the love story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.63.52 (talk) 15:06, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.63.52 (talk) 15:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
who designed the Taj Mahal
who designed the Taj Mahal
Though the Taj Mahal is considered to be the zenith of Mughal architecture, the identity of its architect remains a mystery, in part perhaps because Shah Jahan seems to have played such an active role in its design. In his obsessive drive for perfection, he may have served as his own artistic director, making the personal overseeing of his artists part of his daily routine.
According to art historian Milo Beach, 'This is something we simply have to speculate about. We know Shah Jahan was interested in architecture. We know he was interested in architectural decoration and design. Clearly, he was consulted. He was probably very interested in continually seeing the plans as they developed and commenting on them, and suggesting changes that might be made. The idea that he did any more than that, in terms of the design, is unrealistic. Clearly it's a building that was designed by professional architects who knew what they were doing, not by a prince and an amateur. But an architect was, in a sense, a kind of functionary. Architects and painters never achieved the kind of acclaim that placed them within the ranks of the nobility, for example. They were recognized, but they were never given an enormous amount of importance.'
It has often been suggested that a European architect was responsible for building the Taj , but this is contradicted by the existence of the monuments previously constructed in India. 'First of all, I can't imagine that there was one architect for the Taj Mahal or for any of these buildings,' adds Beach. 'I mean, it had to have been a team effort for such an enormous undertaking. Second of all, a building like the Taj grows out of the earlier artistic traditions in India, and in Iran as well, traditions that a European architect would know virtually nothing about. So I think it's extremely unlikely – there's certainly is no historical evidence whatsoever – that there was a European architect.'
Several designers and architects – thirty seven men in all – are mentioned by name in the official Mughal histories, and it is probable that they would have worked together to form the creative team that shaped the Taj Mahal:
Ismail Afandi (a.k.a. Ismail Khan) who had worked for the great Ottomans in Turkey as a designer and builder of domes;Qazim Khan, a goldsmith from Lahore who cast the gold finial that crowns the dome;Chiranji Lal, a lapidary from Delhi chosen as the chief mosaicist;Amanat Khan from Shiraz, the master calligrapher whose signature is inscribed on the Taj gateway;Mohammed Hanif, Multan and Quandhar, master masons from Delhi; andMukrimat Khan and Mir Abdul Karim from Shiraz, chief supervisors and administrators.
Ustad Ahmad (a.k.a. Isa Khan), an architect in the court of Shah Jahan from Lahore, is most often credited as the chief architect (or plan drawer) of the Taj Mahal, based on a seventeenth century manuscript which claims that Ustad Ahmad was the architect of both the Taj Mahal and the Red Fort at Delhi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.201.28 (talk) 09:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Taj Mahal
There are historical documents that show builders were of Turkic origin please research these documents and include this information — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denizg6 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Shiva?
Dear Wikipedia,It presently states in your article that: The finial is topped by a moon, a typical Islamic motif whose horns point heavenward. Because of its placement on the main spire, the horns of the moon and the finial point combine to create a trident shape, reminiscent of traditional Hindu symbols of Shiva.
however the Taj Mahal contains the inscriptions from the Quran such as:It will be said to the pious: O (you) the one incomplete rest and satisfaction!Come back to your Lord, -- well-pleased (yourself)and well-pleasing unto him!Enter you, then, among My honored slaves,And enter you My Paradise!(Qur'an, Surah Al-Fajr: 89:27-30)
And it was common for Mughal's to top their mosques and flags by combining both the crescent and the spear to create in Islamic Symbol that was unique to the Mughal Empire and that Shah Jahan like any Mughal Emperor had therefore no intention what so ever to create the so-called TRIDENT of Shiva.
Similar combinations of the the crescent and the spear have been used on the Pearl Mosque in Agra and other magnificent marvels of architecture built by Shah Jahan clearly proving that this specific symbol was unique to the Mughal Empire but had no intent to be in any possible way similar to the TRIDENT of the Hindu deity Shiva. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.63.121 (talk) 09:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFO PLEASE CONTACT LIAM DODD ON 4650077 (:D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.86.34.252 (talk) 03:03, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- The article does not say that the motif is intended to refer to Shiva's trident, merely that it is reminiscent of it. The implication is that this distinctively Mughal design is influenced by earlier Indian designs, not that it is intended to express devotion to a Hindu god. An analogy would be with Italian Renaissance artists like Michelangelo, who were influenced by ancient Roman designs, but that does not mean that the Sistine Chapel ceiling contains devotional imagery to pagan gods. Paul B (talk) 15:57, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Taj Mahal was a Shiva temple?
I know this was a some theory of P. N. Oak, but I just wanna to know that does this kind of article– 'Taj Mahal was a Shiva temple' deserve a separate article on Wikipedia? — Bill william comptonTalk 17:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it doesn't. It would be a POV fork. Paul B (talk) 18:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- Same opinion of mine, but some people don't seem to understand this. Will redirect them here for further (yawning!) conversation, thanks. — Bill william comptonTalk 18:50, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
i belive that taj mahal was A hindu lord shiva tample — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.201.214.74 (talk) 05:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Cosmopolitan architecture
I understand that a young nation must build its own national symbols ... but
But Ustad Ahmad Lahauri was probably only the supervisor. There is no mention in the article of Italian craftsmens who worked on the Taj Mahal as in the imperial palaces of Agra, Fatehpur, Sikri, Delhi, some of them are buried in Agra. In addition to the contribution of Geronimo Veroneo (died in Lahore in 1644 but buried in Agra) surely was important the contribution of Hortensio Bronzoni architect and (builder of the lapidary) in the court Shah Jahān (died in Agra in 1670) and buried in cattolic cemetery. Probably they were of palladian school, would explain the theatrical perspective and Vitruvian symmetry and propotions and white colour. Elements of Taj Mahal that are evident ...and absent in older asymmetric Persian and Timurid architecture but present in Mughal and in late modern era in Persia.. However it is plausible that the Mughal architects themselves already known Vitruvio and Palladio books broughts from 'italians'. The Mughal court was cosmopolitan and open to new things of the world, .... at time also the luxury and art market as architecture influenced each other as today. For example to see Gasparo Balbi.
...and the ottoman turks, where are they ?--Andriolo (talk) 14:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Other photo of cemetery: http://www.igougo.com/story-s1359891-Agra-Exploring_the_Roman_Catholic_Cemetery.html
Retrieved from 'https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Taj_Mahal/Archive_4&oldid=849304141'
(Redirected from Tejo Mahalaya)
Born | 2 March 1917 Indore, Indore State, British India |
---|---|
Died | 4 December 2007 (aged 90) |
Nationality | Indian |
Occupation | Soldier and Writer |
Known for | Historical Revisionism |
Purushottam Nagesh Oak (2 March 1917 – 4 December 2007), commonly referred to as P. N. Oak, was an Indian writer, journalist and Indian National Army freedom fighter,[1][2] notable for his Hindu-centric historical revisionism. Oak's 'Institute for Rewriting Indian History' issued a quarterly periodical called Itihas Patrika in the 1980s.
Oak's claims, e.g. that Christianity and Islam are both derivatives of Hinduism, or that Vatican City, Kaaba, Westminster Abbey and the Taj Mahal were once Hindu temples to Shiva,[3] and their reception in Indian popular culture have been noted by observers of contemporary Indian society. In addition to this Oak again asserted that the Vatican was allegedly originally a Vedic creation called Vatika and that the Papacy was also originally a Vedic Priesthood. He wrote books in three languages. History books written by him have inspired several court cases to correct the history based on his theories.[4][5]
- 2Revisionist theories
Life[edit]
Oak was born in 1917 at Indore in the erstwhile Princely State of Indore, British India.[1] According to his own account,[2] he completed an M.A. (Agra) and a law degree (LL.B. Mumbai), was an official in the Ministry for Information, and wrote various journalistic pieces. Dozens of blogs and websites refer to him as 'Professor' P. N. Oak.[6][7][8] Before joining the army, he had also worked as an English tutor at Fergusson College in Pune.[2]
Later he joined the army and was posted in Singapore. During World War II, he was at first with the army of the British Raj in British Malaya at the age of 24. He joined the Indian National Army after Singapore fell to the Japanese. He acted as an assistant to Subhas Chandra Bose in the Indian National Army and then as an ADC to General J. R. Bhonsle, chief of the Indian National Army. He also worked as a commentator for the Azad Hind Radio.[1]
'From 1947 to 1974 his profession has been mainly journalism having worked on the editorial staffs of the Hindustan Times and The Statesman, as a Class I Gazetted officer in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, India; and as editor in the Embassy of the United States' Information Service.'[2] In 1964, he founded an organisation called Institute for Rewriting Indian History.
He died on 4 December 2007, at 3.30 am at his Pune residence aged 90.
Revisionist theories[edit]
Intent on rectifying what he believes to be 'biased and distorted versions of India's history produced by the invaders and colonizers', Oak wrote several books and articles on Indian history and founded an 'Institute for Rewriting Indian History' in 1964.According to Oak, modern secular and Marxist historians have fabricated 'idealized versions' of India's past and drained it of its 'Vedic context and content'. Srinivas Aravamudan noted that Oak's work typically resorts to 'deep punning'[9] – associating Sanskrit sound-alikes with non-Sanskrit religious terms such as Vatican=vatika 'hermitage', Christianity=Krishna-netti or Chrisn-nity 'ethics of Krishna or the way of Krishna' Islam=ishalayam 'temple of God', Abraham as an aberration of Brahma, and George as an aberration of Garg.[10][2] Based on this, Oak claims that both Christianity and Islam allegedly originated as distortions of 'Vedic' beliefs.
Academic and government response[edit]
Oak finds some mention in passing as trustworthy in academic literature on the Hindutva wing of Hindu nationalism. Aravamudan (2005) calls him a 'mythistorian'[9] whose life's work may be summarised by the title of his work World Vedic Heritage: A History of Histories, Presenting a Unique Unified Field Theory of History that from the Beginning of Time the World Practised Vedic and Spoke Sanskrit.
Edwin Bryant in his work on Indo-Aryan theory says 'The various scholars whose work I have examined here are a disparate group. They range from brilliant intellectuals like Aurobindo, to professional scholars like B. B. Lal, to what most academics would consider “crackpots,” like P. N. Oak. 1 The primary feature they share is that they have taken it upon themselves to oppose the theory of Aryan invasions and migrations—hence the label Indigenous Aryanism.'[11]Giles Tillotson describes Oak's work as a 'startling piece of pseudo-scholarship'.[12]
While Oak's theories have been rejected by some, they have found a popular following among others, specially among some members of India's Hindutvas,[13] (N. Ram, editor of The Hindu, calls him a 'Sangh historian'[14]), Indocentrists and the Hare Krishnas mainly but not only represented by author Stephen Knapp. Art historian Rebecca Brown describes Oak's books as 'revisionist history as subtle as Captain Russell's smirk' (referring to a character in the Hindi movie Lagaan).[15]
Although not anti-government in nature, Oak's book 'Some Blunders in Indian Historical Research' was banned from the Parliament's library by the Speaker of the Lok Sabha (lower House) as noted in news archives.[16]There are also other claims of government suppression, e.g. 'Allegedly, Indira Gandhi's government tried to ban [Oak's book on Taj Mahal] and some would say the Indian government has been politically motivated in suppressing this theory'.[citation needed]
Christianity as Vedic Chrisn-nity or Krishna-neeti Theory[edit]
Oak claims that Christianity was originally a Vedic religion following Krishna and claims that Christianity was originally known by either the names Chrisn-nity or Krishna-neeti (with Oak alleging these meant 'The way of Krishna' or 'The Justice of Lord Krishna') these generally follow in line with Oak's other theories and claims that the Vatican was allegedly originally called Vatika and that the Papacy was originally a 'Vedic Priesthood' until Constantine the Great around 312 A.D killed the 'Vedic pontiff' and installed in his place a representative of the tiny Christian sect.[17] Specifically, Oak's followers make the following claims about what they claim as alleged Krishna-neeti. 'Jesus went to India between ages 13 and 30 to learn Krishna-neeti (Christianity) from sages.'[18]
Taj Mahal Theory[edit]
In his book Taj Mahal: The True Story, Oak claims that the Taj Mahal was originally a Shiva temple and a Rajput palace named Tejo Mahalaya seized by Shah Jahan and adopted as a tomb. He argues that may be this temple was built by Indian King Jai Singh I. He says that Mahal is a word to describe a royal palace and not a tomb and after seizure by Shah Jahan, the name was changed to Taj Mahal.[19]
The Taj, Oak says, is a 'typical illustration of how all historic buildings and townships from Kashmir to Cape Comorin though of Hindu origin have been ascribed to this or that Muslim ruler or courtier'.[19] He goes on to propose Hindu origins for the tombs of Humayun, Akbar and I'timād-ud-Daulah and 'all historic buildings' in India as well as Vatican City,[20] the Kaaba and Stonehenge.
Oak says that well-known western authorities on architecture including Ernest Binfield Havell, Mrs. Kenoyer and William Wilson Hunter have written that the Taj Mahal is built in the Hindu temple style,[19] asserting that Havel says the plan of the ancient Hindu temple of Java, the Prambanan, is identical with that of the Taj Mahal.[19] Also, he argues out that the octagonal shape of the Taj Mahal has a special Hindu significance, because Hindus alone have special names for the eight directions and the celestial guards assigned to them.[19] He argues that the finial of the Taj Mahal is a trishula with a Kalasha, holding two bent mango leaves and a coconut, which is a sacred Hindu motif.[19]
Oak claims that Hindu ornaments and symbols were effaced from the Taj, whose sealed chambers hold the remnants, including a lingam, of the original temple, and that Mumtaz Mahal was not buried at her cenotaph.
In support of these claims, Oak presents radiocarbon dating results of the wood from the riverside doorway of the Taj, quotes from European travellers' accounts and the Taj's Hindu architectural features. Oak further alleges that eyewitness accounts of the Taj Mahal's construction as well as Shah Jahan's construction orders and voluminous financial records are elaborate frauds meant to hide its Hindu origin.[19]
Oak petitioned the Indian parliament demanding that the Taj be declared a Hindu monument and that cenotaphs and sealed apartments be opened to determine whether lingams or other remains were hidden in them.[19] According to Oak, the government of India's refusal to allow him unfettered access amounts to a conspiracy against Hinduism. The Indian government has maintained that out of respect for the dead, unnecessary openings of cenotaphs and sealed rooms cannot be allowed.[citation needed]
Oak's denial of Islamic architecture in India has been described as one of the 'more extreme manifestations of anti-Muslim sentiment' in Maharashtrian popular culture.[21]K. N. Panikkar locates Oak's work in the Hindutva movement's attempt to foster a communal understanding of Indian history.[22]Tapan Raychaudhuri has referred to him as 'a 'historian' much respected by the Sangh Parivar.'[23]
In 2000 India's Supreme Court dismissed Oak's petition to declare that a Hindu king had built the Taj Mahal by saying he had a 'bee in his bonnet' about the Taj.[24] Till date, as of 2017, several court cases about Taj Mahal being a Hindu temple have been inspired by Oak's theory.[4][5] In August 2017, Archaeological Survey of India stated there was no evidence to suggest the monument ever housed a temple.[25]
Giles Tillotson calls Oak's claims as a 'desperate bid to assign a new meaning to the Taj' and 'pseudo-scholarship'. He states that Oak interprets the statements of Padshahnama about Shah Jahan's purchase of the land for the Taj from Jai Singh I upon where a mansion built by an ancestor of the Raja earlier existed, to claim that Taj Mahal was a wonder of ancient Hinduism. Tillotoson adds that no evidence is offered by Oak to redate it to thirteen centuries earlier. He adds that the technical know-how to construct structural buildings didn't exist in pre-Mughal India, the only surviving architecture being rock-cut or monolithic. He points that Oak later dropped this claim and claimed it to be from 12th century. He adds that Oak claims Mughals built nothing and only converted Hindu buildings. In relation to similarity with buildings of West Asia, Oak also claims them all to be 'products of Hindu architecture'.[26]
Kaaba Theory: Vedic origins[edit]
In a 13-page pamphlet titled Was Kaaba a Hindu Temple?, Oak derives a claim of a 'Vedic past of Arabia' based on an inscription mentioning the legendary Indian king Vikramāditya that Oak claims was found inside a dish inside the Kaaba. According to Oak, the text of the alleged inscription is taken from the page 315 of an anthology of poetry entitled Sayar-ul-Okul (Se’-arul Oqul meaning the memorable words),[27] compiled in 1742 on the orders of a 'Sultan Salim' (the actual Sultan at the time being Mahmud I, sultan Selim III lived from 1761 to 1808) from the earlier work of prophet Muhammed's uncle Amr ibn Hishām (poetic name 'Abu al-Ḥakam' or ابوالحكم meaning the 'Father of wisdom') who had refused to convert to Islam, and, first modern version published in 1864 in Berlin and a subsequent edition was published in Beirut in 1932.[28] Oak goes on to state that the anthology is kept in the 'Makhtab-e-Sultania Library' (Galatasaray Mekteb-i Sultani or Galatasaray Imperial School) in Istanbul in Turkey, which is now also known as Galatasaray Lisesi school.[29]
Books written[edit]
- Taj Mahal: The True Story — Publisher: A Ghosh (May 1989) Language: English
- Some Missing Chapters of World History – Publisher: Hindi Sahitya Sadan (2010) Language: English
- World Vedic Heritage: A History of Histories – Publisher: New Delhi: Hindi Sahitya Sadan (2003)
- Vaidik Vishva Rashtra Ka Itihas – Publisher: New Delhi: Hindi Sahitya Sadan
- Bharat Mein Muslim Sultan
- Who Says Akbar was Great
- Some Blunders Of Indian Historical Research
- Agra red Fort is a Hindu Building
- Learning Vedic Astrology
Bibliography[edit]
- Christianity is Chrisn-nity, ISBN978-81-88388-77-6
- Islamic Havoc in India (A. Ghosh Publisher, 5740 W. Little York, Houston, Texas, 77091)
- The Taj Mahal Is a Temple Place (Alternate title, The Taj Mahal is a Hindu Palace), Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi (online version: hindusarise.com)
- Who Says Akbar Was Great? (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
- Agra Red Fort is a Hindu Building (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
- Some Blunders of Indian Historical Research (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
- Some Missing Chapters of World History (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
- World Vedic Heritage—A History of Histories (Hindi Sahitya Sadan, New Delhi)
- Taj Mahal — The True Story (ISBN0-9611614-4-2)
- Vaidik Vishva Rashtra Ka Itihas – Publisher: New Delhi: Hindi Sahitya Sadan
- Bharat Mein Muslim Sultan
- Was Kaaba a Hindu Temple?
- Learning Vedic Astrology
See also[edit]
References[edit]
- ^ abcRediff On The NeT: Mahatma, Subhas Chandra Bose were fond of each other. Rediff.com (24 February 1946).
- ^ abcdP. N. Oak. 'About The Author Prof P.N.Oak 19/20'. Archived from the original on 19 January 2007.
- ^P. N. Oak. Christianity is Chrisn-nity.
- ^ abSiraj Qureshi, 'Another court petition challenges Taj Mahal's story as a symbol of love', India Today, 12 August 2017.
- ^ ab'Is Taj Mahal a mausoleum or a Shiva temple? CIC asks govt to clarify', Hindustan Times, 10 August 2017.
- ^'The Real Story of Tajmahal'. blog. 22 November 2005. Retrieved 2 September 2007.As of 2 September 2007, Googling with the quoted string 'Professor P. N. Oak' (with quotes) finds 328 webpages.
- ^'The Taj Mahal and the Controversy Surrounding Its Origins'. h2g2. BBC. 8 February 2000. Retrieved 2 September 2007.This website, a BBC Blog (h2g2) page that can be created by any user, is often erroneously referred to as BBC's having accepted the Oak claims. See the sulekha.com and garysellers citations.
- ^Gary (29 March 2005). 'Taj Mahal – Not made by Shahajahan!!! BBC'. The Indian.
- ^ abSrinivas Aravamudan,Guru English: South Asian Religion in a Cosmopolitan LanguagePrinceton University Press (2005), ISBN0-691-11828-0, p. 36.
- ^P. N. Oak (2003). Some missing chapters of world history. Hindi Sahitya Sadan. p. 15.
- ^Edwin Bryant (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture: The Indo-Aryan Migration Debate. Oxford University Press. p. 4.
- ^Peter Parker (13 September 2008). 'Review: Taj Mahal by Giles Tillotson'. The Daily Telegraph.
- ^Akbar S. Ahmed (May 1993). 'The Taj Mahal'. History Today, vol. 43.
The Taj has recently entered a controversy which reflects the politics of modern India. Hindu fundamentalists, wishing to deny any positive role of Muslims in India, argue that it was not built by Shah Jahan. They claim Hindu rulers in the fourth century built it. Books with titles such as Taj Mahal Was a Rajput Palace (P.N. Oak, 1965; online version) further argue this position. There is no merit in the argument, but it has acquired something of a popular following in India.
- ^'HRD Ministry – its master's voice'. The Hindu. 29 April 2001.
- ^Rebecca Brown (2004). 'Lagaan: Once Upon a Time in India'. Film & History: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Film and Television Studies. 34 (1): 78–80. doi:10.1353/flm.2004.0008.
- ^Rajeev Dhavan. 'Thinning not the answer to PN Oak Speaker's powers'. Archived from the original on 22 March 2012. Retrieved 26 April 2012.CS1 maint: BOT: original-url status unknown (link)
- ^VNN Editorial – Cities And Regions SinceArchived 18 January 2012 at the Wayback Machine. Vnn.org (4 June 1999).
- ^'Book Review: New Birth or Rebirth – Jesus Talks with Krishna (Great Conversations) by Ravi Zacharias'.
- ^ abcdefghP. N. Oak. 'The Tajmahal is Tejomahalay—A Hindu Temple'. Dharma Universe.
- ^Oak, P.N. (4 June 1999). 'Cities And Regions Since'. Vaishnava News Network. Archived from the original on 18 January 2012.
- ^Carl W. Ernst, Annemarie Schimmel (1992). Eternal Garden: Mysticism, History, and Politics at a South Asian Sufi Center. State University of New York Press. p. 36.
- ^K. N. Pannikar. 'OUTSIDER AS ENEMY: POLITICS OF REWRTING HISTORY IN INDIA (address to the Stanford India Association)'(PDF). Archived from the original(PDF) on 9 January 2006.
- ^Tapan Raychaudhuri (2000). 'Shadows of the Swastika: Historical Perspectives on the Politics of Hindu Communalism'. Modern Asian Studies. 34 (02): 259–279. doi:10.1017/S0026749X00003310.
- ^PTI (14 July 2000). 'Plea on Taj history dismissed'. The Tribune.
- ^
- ^Giles Tillotson (2008). Taj Mahal. Harvard University Press. pp. 112–114.
- ^Muslim Digest, July to Oct. 1986 pages 23–24;[1] Purushottam Nagesh Oak, Indian Kshatriyas Once Ruled from Bali to Baltic & Korea to Kaba (1966)
- ^'Hindu Vishva', Volume 27, Issues 4-11, pp. 16.
- ^Rabbi Simon Altaf, 2011, World War III - Unmasking the End-Times Beast: Unmasking End Time Beast, African-Israel International Union of Israelite Qahalim, ISBN1599160528.
Further reading[edit]
- Ganga Ram Garg (1992). Encyclopaedia of the Hindu World. Concept Publishing Company. ISBN978-81-7022-375-7.
- Ram Gopal (1998). Islam, Hindutva, and Congress quest. Reliance Pub. House. ISBN978-81-7510-072-5.
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